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whispering
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Finland
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 Posted - 2003/06/18 : 02:10:04
quote:
Originally posted by strychnine:
If one or two people steal from you, then fine, you are entitled to moral outrage. If 90% of your consumers are stealing, then it's not that simple. Somewhere along the line, the you f***ed up and excluded 90% of your market.
So your answer to corruption is, that if everybody else do it then its ok?
quote:
Originally posted by strychnine:
That, really, is my point. The mp3 trade hurt the recording industry economically, and the industry's response should've been to look at it as an economic issue of losing market share to a competing product. Instead, it's trying to wage a legal war in the courts (which, apart from being thoroughly useless, is looking more and more like a witch-hunt), and a moral war in the media against people who simply aren't receptive to moral persuasion. And the reason for this war? The fact that the industry wants these people to become its customers. Smart move, Recording Industry! Call them thieves, tell them that they're going to go to hell, send a handful to prison "as an example", and then market Britney's latest CD to the rest. Bravo.
How can you expect someone to change a 20 year old format just like that,
you do realise how much it will cost to make that? not to mention the little labels. and after all the money spend how could they still compeate with a free one? and after that they would be back where they started.
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strychnine
Advanced Member
Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/18 : 04:23:18
quote:
Originally posted by whispering:
So your answer to corruption is, that if everybody else do it then its ok?
No. But one thing I'm sure of is that pointing at the 90% of the human population that's breaking the rule and calling them criminals isn't going to be much of an "answer to corruption", either.
Besides, morality is a relative thing. Once upon it time, it was a gentlemanly practice to settle disputes of honour using firearms.
quote:
How can you expect someone to change a 20 year old format just like that, you do realise how much it will cost to make that?
Oh boo-f***ing-hoo for the industry. It was their oligopolistic manipulation of the market that created the demand for digital formats in the first place.
As far as I'm concerned, if they're not willing to change, if they're not willing to adapt to this new format, then quite frankly they deserve to lose sales to it. Economic reality, harsh though it may be.
Oh, and if some college students with pass grades in first-year computing can create viable distribution channels for digital-format music, then how hard could it possibly be for the record industry to do it?
quote:
... after all the money spend how could they still compeate with a free one?
They won't compete. Not evenly, anyways. The best they can hope for is to draw a significant minority of the mp3 trade back into their revenue books ... and let's face it, every cent that they get out of this segment is a cent that they would not have gotten otherwise.
Let me ask you this: what do you think the industry should do? Beating its chest about its moral and legal rights aren't going to do much good when the (economic) root of the problem remains intact. How do you propose they solve it?
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whispering
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Finland
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Posted - 2003/06/18 : 22:39:24
quote:
Originally posted by strychnine:
Let me ask you this: what do you think the industry should do? Beating its chest about its moral and legal rights aren't going to do much good when the (economic) root of the problem remains intact. How do you propose they solve it?
Well i dont consider my self as problem solver, but this is what my little mind figured out: I would continue with the MP3's are bad phrase, coz otherwise people would think its ok to d/l (what can you do people are dumb)...
At the same time start making the CD more worth buying like: Hardcore Heaven had a bonus DVD, 666 had a cd/dvd combo disc, where the other side was the actual album and the other side was a dvd side with all their music videos, more things like that... Music videos, bio's, screen savers, wallpapers etc. And with the same price...
Then slowly start creating a program/store that would sell music in a digital format, although i dont think that the world is "ready" for that, coz they tryed to make that with napster and it didnt work. Basicly now it cant be a program, coz people would think its like kazaa, only diffrence is that you have to pay for it (again people are dumb)... And then the file format, there is no such thing as copyprotection, there will always be someone to crack it...
So the main problem would be that people share it via p2p prog's...
I think we have to wait to the point that all countrys have Internet laws, that way there couldnt be any more file sharing programs...
And they should Turn the tide on those Copyprotected cd's, attackin the actual buyers will do much more harm then good...
And the time when Metallica sued their own fans, god how can someone be so stupid, offcourse they will look like the robbers, while the creator of napster looks like robin hood... The album's they made at that point was full of s***, and trying to blame napster, when it wasnt even that popular to download 
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strychnine
Advanced Member
Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/19 : 05:44:26
quote:
Originally posted by whispering:
I would continue with the MP3's are bad phrase, coz otherwise people would think its ok to d/l (what can you do people are dumb)...
Wrong. People aren't listening to it now, and they won't listen to it in the future. By all means, go along with "Music piracy is bad", but chanting "MP3's are bad" just before you open up an online MP3 store isn't going to be the greatest marketing move.
quote:
At the same time start making the CD more worth buying
I wouldn't bother. CD (unlike vinyl) just doesn't have enough to offer beyond MP3 to make it economically viable. (See below)
quote:
... And with the same price...
I doubt the industry would do this, for the same reason that it won't go with the MP3 store idea. (See below)
quote:
Then slowly start creating a program/store that would sell music in a digital format, although i dont think that the world is "ready" for that, coz they tryed to make that with napster and it didnt work. Basicly now it cant be a program, coz people would think its like kazaa, only diffrence is that you have to pay for it (again people are dumb)... And then the file format, there is no such thing as copyprotection, there will always be someone to crack it...
So the main problem would be that people share it via p2p prog's...
Now we're talking! 
Firstly, I agree with the copyprotection thing; it didn't work for software, and it won't work for music. It'll only make the MP3's more expensive, and in turn sway people back into downloading illegally. Kinda counterproductive, if you ask me.
Second, I think the world is ready for it, at the right price. By that I mean reasonable prices: enough to cover all production costs (including artist royalties) and a reasonable profit margin.
Also, you seem to be assuming that the goal is to maintain the industry's CD-era profits in the age of MP3. I think that this is neither desirable nor feasible. Every cent that the price of legitimate MP3 increases will send more consumers back down the illegal path.
quote:
I think we have to wait to the point that all countrys have Internet laws, that way there couldnt be any more file sharing programs...
I hope this never happens. To sacrifice the freedom associated with the most free of the communication media in order to make it economically viable is, to me, just plain unacceptable.
quote:
And they should Turn the tide on those Copyprotected cd's, attackin the actual buyers will do much more harm then good...
Amen. I think I said pretty much the same thing in my previous post.
...
Now, why the industry won't go with the 'legitimate MP3' idea:
Compact Disc as a format will die on its ass. Once the industry gives in to MP3, people will realise that there is nothing bundled with a CD that can't be reproduced (to an extent) with a PC and the right peripherals. Given that legitimate MP3 will have to be a lot cheaper to even lose respectably (let alone compete successfully) against the pirate trade, no-one in their right mind would go for CD (especially when all the value-added stuff that you suggested would probably be available from the pirate trade the day after it's released).
Of course, if they do it right, they can make MP3 profitable for themselves. It wouldn't be too hard; it's just a matter of offering some things (eg. legitimacy, reliability, etc) that the pirate trade can't match. Unfortunately for them, they'll then be left with a crapload of (now redundant) CD pressing plants and equipment. They can't hope to charge enough of a margin on MP3 to cover this sudden depreciation, so they're taking the other option: fight the war long enough to allow these plants to at least come close to paying themselves off. Understandable, if it weren't for the goodwill that they're losing in the process.
I accept, it's a fine mess that the industry has found itself in, losing its oligopolistic grip on the market and all. The outcome of all this will be a market that is as competitive as it should be, and every effort that the industry spends on trying to retain its weakening grip means less effort that it'll have available when it decides to compete.
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Edited by - strychnine on 2003/06/19 05:46:33 |
ryg0r
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Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/22 : 16:00:49
Well a few of us, have gone astray from the original topic of discussion: quote:
"This is about what mp3's/wma's/ogg's whatever can do to the scene."
Just done some reading on (/.) Slashdot on a pay-per-download store(s):quote:
the site takes .40, the labels take .30 and the artists get a measly 12 cents for each download."
Check out the article here:http://slashdot.org/articles/03/06/22/0323239.shtml?tid=141&tid=188&tid=98&tid=99
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silver
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Japan
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Posted - 2003/06/22 : 18:36:49
You can not get onto itunes unless your a major major label.
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ryg0r
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Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/22 : 18:55:58
Anywhoo the point of the post is that on existing pay-per-mp3 sites, the artist still doesn't get that much.
As for hardcore, a pay-per-download may not.....meh.... What I mean to say is that playing 160kps mp3s in front of 2000 ravers is pretty ghey.
No doubt the idea could be good, so long as they find a format.
I'd got for it! It would save shipping costs, and would be heaps cheap.
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silver
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Japan
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Posted - 2003/06/22 : 19:41:06
Actually I checked this out and it is a little wrong, 12 percent is for the artists, but the publishing is also for the artist (in most cases) minus a little for the publishing house. What most people don't actually know is that most the money is in publishing (in the long term) which labels don't normally take if they sign you as an artist.
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strychnine
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Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/22 : 21:35:01
quote:
Originally posted by ryg0r:
As for hardcore, a pay-per-download may not.....meh.... What I mean to say is that playing 160kps mp3s in front of 2000 ravers is pretty ghey
... which is why vinyl will always have a place. That, and the fact that it *feels* different - a unique characteristic that CD doesn't have.
I think mp3's role will be (and should be) for people who want just want the music for listening purposes, and don't want all the baggage that comes with hard formats.
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Midway_raver
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United Kingdom
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 Posted - 2003/06/23 : 15:40:54
i no this shud probably be in a poll question but i dont no how to start one:
How many of this sites users would say that thru mp3 they have either had their musical horizons broadened or herd tunes they wud probably have not heard otherwise??
In complete darkness we are all the same, it is only our knowledge and wisdom that seperates us.
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ryg0r
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Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/23 : 17:24:42
I think only Silver can do a pole
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strychnine
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Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/23 : 17:39:29
quote:
Originally posted by ryg0r:
I think only Silver can do a pole
What Silver does in his spare time, behind closed doors, is none of our business. 
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captain SP
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Greece
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Posted - 2003/06/25 : 02:30:04
Well i think mp3s is a good way to make hardcore scene known to other countries and spread the vibe.Here in Greece there are no incoming records and no cd's.There's no production and no place you can hear hardcore.Only trance,house,techno....
Even me and some other people here that like hardcore can learn about new realeases and old stuff from mp3s and then spread this music to others.This way we try to make a group of people to organise some parties with some vinyls we have (even from the net its hard to find the stuff i want) and create a hardcore scene here.Of course its to early to speak about a scene....
So here i believe mp3s are very helpfull and don't harm the scene because there are no sales to be affected.
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The Sperminator 2
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 2003/06/25 : 03:32:00
if we're getting to the point when we're saying
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The Sperminator 2
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 2003/06/25 : 03:35:45
oh dear, looks like my post got trimmed down to about 5 words ^^^
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